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 Post subject: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:44 pm 
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Just found this:

Quote:
We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

[ Post edited by Wryxian ]



From: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... 1&pageNo=1

Weird decision to make 10/25 man loot the same imo, i foresee many guilds breaking up.

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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:23 am 
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well probs. but also some just startin to do 2x10 same time.. which could be ok for our sunday evenings when we strugglin to fill 25m

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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:06 pm 
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Call me old-school but i prefer the things the way they are now with raids... although getting 25 people together, organizing, leading... that usually can turn into nightmares...

Been reading about this on several blogs as well, one comment that struck me in particular is that people get the feeling they are inferior raiders if they only raid 10 mans - i always found smaller raids to be more difficult and with less margin for error than bigger ones...

But from a raider perspective i feel much more 'epic' in 25 man raids... there was a comment on one of the blogs, something in terms of "killing the Lich King with 10 people just made him look like a wuss, however killing him with 25 made it all look like we were actually accomplishing something" or something like that...


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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:20 pm 
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this 10m and 25m sharin ID is stupid. ie. guild getting first day 3/5 boss down with 25. next day they get likely only 20 on and they could do last 2 boss down in 10m but only half of them get in. i see some good here with. if guild likes more 25m but sometimes can't get 25m on so there is option to continue instance as 10m but when u have 20 and class combination is good to set 2x10m but they can't cause this shared ID so half needs to step out. =(

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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:10 pm 
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I think alot of guilds will just do 10m because the loot is the same for 10/25 and why would you need to "fill up spots" with 15 more ppl that aren't that great if you can take the best 10 players and do everything with them first try and way faster. Maybe it's just me but how i see it 25m raiding will die, because finding 24 capable persons will be harder than finding 9. Good old times with 5 of each class in a raid...

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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Yorick wrote:
Good old times with 5 of each class in a raid...


I miss those.

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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:03 pm 
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Yeah, I agree with Yrick this change will probably be the end of 25man raids. Only difference will be that 25m will drop more items. Dont know if its worth to organise a 25m only for more loot.

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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:43 am 
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About loot, if they up the number of items on 25 mans, they will still maintain a ratio (say 25% of people will get the loot), so it doesn't really mater does it? You will have the same chance to get loot in a 10 man or in a 25 man, so from a logistic point of view - why bother with trying to find 24 capable persons, as Yorick put it...
I don't think this is a decision i agree with, but from Blizzard's point of view i understand why they would want to implement it.


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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Hmm, I'm not sure about this.
Bliz say that they're trying to promote the 25-player raids over the 10-player raids by making 25-player raids more rewarding, and 10-player raids something you'd only do if you couldn't get 25 people.
I worry that might end up turning 10-player raids into progress raids (with a guild's 10 best geared people) and 25-player raids into farming runs.


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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:15 pm 
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I can't link a source because I can't remember where I saw it but I thought blizzard said the number of loot dropped per player would be increased in 25 man's. Now by my understanding that means, for example, if 1 item dropped in 10 man, then 3 might drop in 25 man, meaning 1 loot every 10 people in 10 man, and 1 loot every 8 1/3 people making 25 man's still worth it. Whether or not that outweighs the extra effort of organising 24 people instead of 9 remains to be seen.

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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:44 pm 
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It looks Blizz will not give extra gear for 25m raids.

From: mmo-champions

Amount of gear in 10/25-Man Raids
The amount of gear in the 25 person raids will be roughly equivalent on per-person basis to the 10 person raids. One thing to keep in mind it that we don't plan to allow players to upshift from 10s to 25s, only downshift from 25s to 10s on a given week.

The statements beforehand said that 25person would have more gear per person than 10s, so I wonder if "roughly equivalent" indicates a change in plans, or just not wanting to commit yet to either "exactly the same" or "more".
The number 6 per boss was being mentioned I believe, so slightly more I guess, but anything can change in testing so I wouldn't say that it is set in stone. But we all know you guys won't call us out if anything changes during a beta, right?

So basically there will be no real incentive (gear-wise at least) to run 25 man raids.
There are rewards like badges/gold for the additional coordination involved, but we are trying to avoid having gear be the reason that one style is better than the other.


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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:19 am 
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I did read that they were planing on making some more changes to raid locks. A 25 man will be splittable into 3 separate 10 mans if you all cant get on at the same time from then on.

In addition if i pug the first boss of a raid and cren does the same in a different grp we can then both join a totally different grp made up of members of both raids to try the 2nd boss. So you will be saved to a Boss not a raid if that makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: raiding in cataclysm
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:49 am 
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While the loot per person seems to be an extra 20% (assuming the 6 ends up being the magic number) isnt as significant as some would have thought, I think the primary incentive to do 25mans will be badges. Especially if the current prices are kept (Though I can see 75/100 being the new prices)

This will be... an incredibly powerful gearing tool. I think the best way to go about raiding in cataclysm is strict 10man groups due to the familiarization of raiding, I can however see the appeal of running say Marrowgar->Saurfang with 25 people, splitting that into the two "real" raid groups and 5 semi-serious casuals.

I do however like the idea of per boss saves, as (from what I understand) you can alt pug the first 4 and still be available should you be needed for say Proff.

I know its a bit early for this type of post, but I just think its smart to start giving these things some thought. Wether officers ask members or not for their opinion on the direction laz will take, it seems reasonable to start questioning what kind of raid experience one wants... as this might differ from what Laz will actually end up doing.


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